Session Start: Mon Apr 26 21:17:26 1999
<Jaevin> prove anything has any meaning at all
<LSzilard> My RESPONSE to your challenge has meaning, right here!
<Jaevin> you're smoking crack
<LSzilard> What you just said has meaning.
<Jaevin> how so?
<LSzilard> You're confusing MEANING with "FUN STUFF", or something.  Nothing gives you a woody, any more.
<Jaevin> what the fuck are you talking about? hahahaha
<LSzilard> You're INSANE if you honestly believe that nothing has any meaning.
<LSzilard> It's just stylistically wrong.
<Jaevin> nothing has meaning
<LSzilard> It's so......so Camus.....so Sartre.  Those idiots.
<Jaevin> it's all relative
<LSzilard> Dude.  You're out of your mind.
<Jaevin> how so?
<LSzilard> Where do you get this nonsense?
<Jaevin> prove something has meaning
<LSzilard> STOP!
<LSzilard> I'll show you!
<Jaevin> ok
<LSzilard> "prove something has meaning" <--------   this means, TO ME (AND THAT'S A EXAMPLE OF A "MEANING") that you want me to demonstrate that ideas, and intentions can be decoded, to some end, or purpose.
<Jaevin> that is relative
<LSzilard> Are you a Communist, or something?
<LSzilard> Look.   You're sitting in front of a computer.  You're typing stuff onto your, and my screen.
<Jaevin> I believe the world can take care of its own government as long as it leaves me alone
<LSzilard> That has meaning.   Now look!  Do you mean that you're just SICK of the WORLD??  Okay, fine.
<Jaevin> eh? no, the world has it's moments
<Jaevin> i'm just saying nothing has meaning
<LSzilard> Just because you're sick of ideas, and your own finiteness, does not mean that there is no meaning.
<Jaevin> it will all be gone
<LSzilard> Are you depressed, or something?
<Jaevin> haha, no
<LSzilard> In other words, everything is meaningless, is that it?
<LSzilard> Jaevin:  You didn't really MEAN to say that, did you?
<Jaevin> unless you can prove otherwise, that is correct
<Jaevin> everything is meaningless
<Jaevin> it will all be gone eventually
<LSzilard> Look, "means" simply means "means".
<LSzilard> So will blade of grass.   A cloud.
<Jaevin> correct
<LSzilard> Just because a blade of grass will be gone, does NOT mean that it is "meaningless".
<Jaevin> this is my favoritest conversation I everhad
<Jaevin> what will that grass blade ever do?
<LSzilard> Just because YOU will be gone,does not mean that you are meaningless.
<Jaevin> what can I ever do?
<LSzilard> Jaevin: A blade of grass might become food for a caterpillar...or an ant...
<Jaevin> then what will the caterpillar do?
<LSzilard> A caterpillar will then become a moth, or a butterfly, and pollenate flowers, balancing the ecosystem...and that moth or butterfly will reproduce...
<Jaevin> then what?
<LSzilard> and, as a result, certain valauble species of flower will not go extinct...  and those flowers might provide sustenance to certain species of honeybees...
<Jaevin> and then?
<LSzilard> And, honeybees ....you get my point?
<LSzilard> Oh, you want me to go on?
<Jaevin> you know, if 5 billion years the sun will engulf the earth and destroy everything
<LSzilard> Jaevin:  Okay.  So, you have only 4 billion years, 364 days, 23 hours and 30 seconds to get packed!
<Jaevin> no, we will be dead
<LSzilard> Okay.  In some grand, psychic, (or spiritual) sense, our lives would have no meaning, if there were no "god".
<Jaevin> where is god?
<LSzilard> I would grant you that.  But I am simply not sure that there really is a god, so I can't answer that.
<Jaevin> so our lives having meaning depends on a god that may or may not exist?
<LSzilard> In a a "psychic" or "psychological", or "existential" sense, yes.   I think that is fair to say, yes.
<Jaevin> so nothing means anything'
<LSzilard> If there is no god, then our lives have no real "spiritual" or "psychic" or "psychological" meaning.
<LSzilard> NO!
<LSzilard> Hold on!  You're jumping the gun, again.
<Jaevin> no no
<Jaevin> see
<LSzilard> I said "IF".
<Jaevin> just wait a sec
<LSzilard> And I had some CONDITIONS....
<Jaevin> either everything has meaning, or nothing has meaning
<Jaevin> I believe both are true
<LSzilard> I set some groundwor...
<Jaevin> I just like arguing
<LSzilard> I'VE BEEN HAD!
<LSzilard> Are you SERIOUS???
<Jaevin> it's like this
<LSzilard> Everything has meaning.
<Jaevin> look up into space, see the universe? it is infinite
<LSzilard> Look.  The statement "nothing has meaning" is self-evidently false.
<Jaevin> look down in a microscope at a spec of dust, it is infinite
<Jaevin> no
<Jaevin> nothing has meaning and everythign has meaning, chaos is order, head and tails are both on the same coin
<LSzilard> I don't mean to be difficult, but, the latest Hubble findings, NASA astrophysics, etc, seem to think that the universe may NOT be infinite.
<LSzilard> It may NOT be infinite, after all....
<Jaevin> it's infinity, it just wraps around
<Jaevin> er infinity
<Jaevin> er
<Jaevin> infinite
<Jaevin> blah
<LSzilard> If nothing had any meaning, you couldn't be talking to yourself and understand what you're saying.
<Jaevin> maybe I'm only thinking I am
<Jaevin> I know nothing
<LSzilard> What I really get from this conversation is that you just want to go:  "So what!", when you consider anything.
<Jaevin> except that I exist
<Jaevin> no no, I've thought all this through very deeply, over hours and hours of intense brooding
<LSzilard> Are you in college, or did you take any college courses?
<LSzilard> What you seem to be saying is that you're a nihilist, of sorts...this is all for nothing.  No purpose.
<LSzilard> No meaning.
<Jaevin> and the conclusion I have come to, is that everything contradicts everything, meaning is relative, and the only thing worth while is to smile and laugh a bit.  Of course, i could be wrong. I was all the other times
<Jaevin> whats with the college questions?\
<LSzilard> So, I would say that "nihilism" or "existentialism" is more of an emotional movement, rather than a philosophical one.
<LSzilard> Just curious how you got into this mode of thought.
<LSzilard> How did you get into this "meaningless" mode of thought?
<LSzilard> Do you realize that if you are correct, then your claim that there is no meaning is also meaningless?  In that case, why believe it?
<Jaevin> as I've said before, I believe both that everything has meaning and nothing does, I just happen to be argueing with you because I was bored
<Jaevin> everything is meaningless, including this statement
<LSzilard> Jesus.
<LSzilard> You were BORED???
<LSzilard> Okay...very funny.
<LSzilard> Okay.
<Jaevin> see, I was right
<LSzilard> But I've run across a whole bunch of really, really sloppy, messy "thinkers" in the #philosophy channel, and I won't let them get away with outrageous claims and bullshit.
<LSzilard> You were right about what?
<LSzilard> What were you right about?
<Jaevin> everything
<Underpant> You sound like you just crave attention.
<Jaevin> if you give relative meaning and understanding to the words I say, and truly understand it, you would see it is correct
<Underpant> I MUST disagree.  I happen to believe that everything has meaning.   I do NOT believe, simultaneously (or otherwise), that nothing has meaning.
<Underpant> Nor do I believe that "everything is relative".  This is also a self-contradiction.
<Jaevin> then why do you kill ants?
<Underpant> I am not aware that I kill ants.
<Underpant> In fact, I often go out of my way NOT to kill ants.
<Jaevin> you've never killed an ant?
<Underpant> OF COURSE I've killed an ant.  But it was by mistake.
<Underpant> I've probably killed HUNDREDS, or THOUSANDS of ants.
<Jaevin> oh no! thousands of ants have died
<Underpant> What does killing ants have to do with "meaning", though.
<Underpant> Jaevin:  lol
<Jaevin> you know, they are born, work hard their entire lives, strive for the betterment of the colony
<Jaevin> only to be killed by you
<Underpant> Jaevin:  Okay, just because ants die accidentally does not mean that their lives were meaningless.
<Jaevin> to them, their lives were everything
<Jaevin> beyond meaningful
<Jaevin> how could you speak as if they were meaningless?
<Underpant> Underpant: You MUST have heard this example from Chaos theory:   "A butterfly, flapping its wings, in a field in Kansas, can cause a typhoon to hit India, killing thousands of people..."   Well, that butterfly can also cause a typhoon to NOT form...or even to blow it off course.
<Underpant> You MUST have heard this example from Chaos theory:   "A butterfly, flapping its wings, in a field in Kansas, can cause a typhoon to hit India, killing thousands of people..."   Well, that butterfly can also cause a typhoon to NOT form...or even to blow it off course.
<Jaevin> maybe I'm dreaming that I am the butterfly, maybe the butterfly is dreaming it is me
<Underpant> Remember Jurasic Park?
<Jaevin> it is all meaningless, unless we apply meaningh
<Jaevin> making it relative
<Underpant> You keep saying "relative...relative...relative"....why does everyone just throw this word out?? It's such a cop-out.
<Underpant> What does this "relative" shit mean?
<Jaevin> how is it a cop out?
<Jaevin> please, back up your insults
<Underpant> I don't get it.  Just WHAT is "relative"?
<Underpant> Relative to WHAT???
<Jaevin> relative means it applies to you specifically
<Underpant> When you say something is relative, it's got to be relative to SOMETHING!
<Jaevin> to me, I like coke, that means coke is relatively good to me
<Underpant> WRONG!  It means that you     JUST      LIKE           COKE       .          Period.
<Jaevin> no
<Jaevin> because coke isn't good to everyone
<Jaevin> coke is good to me
<Underpant> But you're not TALKING ABOUT everyone.
<Jaevin> so everything is meaningless unless it's relative
<Underpant> Yes, but what MORON would drink a Coke, and go:  "Mmmmm!!!  This coke is pretty good, as far as most other people are concerned"?
<Underpant> He'd be out of his mind!
<Underpant> Or..."Mmmm!  Other people think this coke is pretty good, too!".
<Jaevin> no, but he could say "as far as i'm concerned, coke is good"
<Jaevin> so relativly coke is good when you consider him
<Underpant> Yes, but this is ridiculously obvious!
<Jaevin> so coke has meaning to him, but maybe not to some africans who never even had coke
<Jaevin> and in a million years coke will be gone, and so will he
<Jaevin> so coke is meaningless
<Jaevin> except in relation to him liking it
<Underpant> We can pretty much guess that you're not necessarily speaking for other people, when you express your enjoyment of Coke®
<Underpant> My point is, when you say that you like coke, you're not saying that Coke is relatively good to you.
<Jaevin> yesd I am
<Underpant> You just like Coke, period.  That doesn't mean that you like Pepsi better, or Robitussin cough Syrup worse.
<Jaevin> hmm cough syrup
<Jaevin> so?
<Underpant> If you said that you like coke, I would NOT have the right to suppose that you like it better than you like Mountain Dew®, for example.
<Jaevin> I like coke.  That means that coke is relative to me in the fact that I am of the opinion that it is good
<Jaevin> you miss the point
<Jaevin> and this is dragging on
<Jaevin> just trust that I am right
<Underpant> I would merely draw the conclusion that you simply like Coke, and leave it at that.
<Jaevin> but why?
<Jaevin> you should understand the entire concept, instead of accepting things
<Underpant> When you drink Coke, do you ALWAYS think "Gee, this is better than other liquids that I ingest..."
<Jaevin> thats like at school, when you are 6 they tell you to memorize words and numbers, not understand them, and so these people grow up thinking they know things because they memorize things instead of actually learning them
<Jaevin> why are you comparing things?
<Jaevin> that has no relevence whatso-ever to this conversation
<Jaevin> aw fuck, the shit has hit the fan because my girlfriend saw my part on my page where it says that I think it's good
<Underpant> I don't know why you're so confused about this stuff, and I'm not sure why you think this way, but you're starting to convince me that you really believe this stuff, and it's starting to scare me.  You seem to be in a leauge with quite a few other confused, scary, young, nihilistic people.
<Underpant> That you think WHAT is good?
<Underpant> What is your girlfriend upset about?
<Jaevin> that wedsday people died
<Underpant> Wedsday people....???  Huh?
<Jaevin> at the school
<Jaevin> sorry phone
<Underpant> Let me ask you this:  Tell me the truth.  Are you happy that 15 people died at Littleton?
<Underpant> Does that make you happy?
<Jaevin> not really
<Underpant> But you think it's GOOD that 15 people were shot to death at Littleton.
<Jaevin> possibly
<Jaevin> sorry phone, sorta here
<Underpant> Is that why you're in trouble with your girlfriend?
<Underpant> I sse.  You think that those 2 Trenchcoat Mafia kids were pretty fucking cool, is that right?
<Jaevin> nope
<Underpant> The 2 shooters, who went around with guns, killing people, shooting kids right in the face.  That's the BOMB, right?
<Jaevin> I'M ON THE PHONE
<Jaevin> christ, be patient, and stop being an asshole
<Underpant> umm....
<Underpant> GET OFF THE PHONE!
<Underpant> WE       WERE      HAVING          A               DISCUSSION         !!!!!!
<Underpant> This is SEROIUS stuff.
<Underpant> SERIOUS, even.
<Jaevin> here is my site, I'll be with you in a sec
<Jaevin> www.geocities.com/area51/zone/8942/
<Underpant> (It MEANS something.)
<Underpant> I agree with everything that you said on your website.
<Jaevin> ok
<Jaevin> I'm back
<Underpant> Everything.  I agree, 100%.  I'm not lying.  The media is corrupt.  The government is corrupt.  We are NOT all EQUAL.
<Jaevin> my girlfriend was crying because I said the thing about the trench coat mafia
<Underpant> What did you say about the Trench coat Mafia?
<Jaevin> now what was with you trying to speak in ebonics to try to make a point? it just made you sound stupid, but I won't judge you until the evidence is it
<Jaevin> it's further down on the page
<Jaevin> anyways
<Jaevin> please go on
<Jaevin> oh, ok
<Jaevin> you left
Session Close: Mon Apr 26 22:20:03 1999